Curse

nerf the gop · Nov 06, 2006, 07:38 AM // 07:38

people always find things to cry about in pvp, first was air spike then iway... ect. 6vs6 ruined halls to a certin point, but it balanced out and people excepted the changes. as of right now halls is a nightmere, its a complete throw up on every other map, I personaly beleave anet has new 8v8 areana in the works to replace hoh.

Keilious Ahruhk · Nov 06, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Not signed.

As I said in another thread, I find battles against so much as one other human lots of fun, so the AI doesn't really bug me in that aspect.

Secondly, this has finally given me a good shot at HA whenever I feel like it. By no means am I some kind of "noob", my guild finished last season ranked in the 200s. The problem is, we only get enough people to play large PvP one day a week, and we only have enough time for GvG.
Now with heroes, whenever I can get one other friend, I can have fun in a complex PvP, as opposed to the direct simplicity of RA or TA.

Trying to make friends on the european server HA or international is another nightmare, the place is filled with people with no grasp of punctuation or spelling, who spew forth foul four letter words at every opportunity -That's IF they even speak english.

That being said, I'm quite satisfied with the way things are in there right now, but it wouldn't be too big a loss to see heroes go from there, I suppose... There's still lots of fun to be had in HvH, PvE, GvG and AB...

Linksys · Nov 06, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Hmm. I don't agree with the elitist attitude of saying things like "you shouldn't play in HA." If using Heros makes things more managable for people new to HA, then so be it. If you're having a tough time against Heros, get some Heros and level them up. If many people-only teams will only take people with rank 3 or higher, then I want to see more and more people with that rank. The more, the better. It should be Hero's Ascent, not Elite Ascent. Everyone should be able to enjoy it if they wish. I want to see all HA newcomers have fun and get some fame points.

Lord Mendes · Nov 06, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

/signed

Are there more players in HA? no.
Are there more teams in HA? yes, though 5/6 of them are bots.
Is rank becoming even more irrelivant? yes, even though noone thought it possible. Now instead of beating teams, your heroes are beating teams and you are getting rank. Rank means nothing, and I laugh when I read unranked people wanting to join ranked groups. Trust me you are better off playing with people you know and trust.
Is the quality of builds in HA getting better or more balanced? no, it is all AI searing heat teams.
Are the better (has nothing to do with rank) players leaving HA? yes, no doubt about that. Just reading this thread it is obvious that people from the best HA guilds such as iA are not happy about this change.
Do i lose to heroway? I have not lost to heroway, except when being ganked by two heroways cuz I am a noob for playing with real people, and even then I win most the time (ego +1 :P). No matter how leet they are at interupting my reversal of fortune, they are still horrible when it matters: interupting on altars, running relics, bodyblocking, getting KEY skills, coordinating spikes.
Do i enjoy playing against heroes? Not one bit. At least we could interact with the other team. Ever been told "gg" after beating a heroway? Not me...
Should you ban ALL heroes from HA? Yunas is suggesting 50% of the team be real players, and I cannot see an entire team should be AI.
Will finding parties for HA be any easier? Yes it will. Forming/joining a party before heroes were introduced did take some time before, especially for unranked people, but half the things i learnt were on vent when people were recommending me what skills to take, saying what tactics we should use when playing against a certain FoTM, what I can do better, etc...
Is playing HA supposed to be like killing trolls outside droks? No, the back of the guildwars box says they are very different. Why do they feel the same?

<3 yunas, great thread.
I hope people that like heroes read this thread thoroughly and realize that this decision is bothering more people than initially thought, and that the only reason they want heroes to stay is because they are grinding something that is totally irrelivant (read, bambi.). Trust me, you will get more fame in the long run if you start off with real players.
Also, the hero title cannot be maxed and does not count for the "Kind of a Big Deal (1)" or "People Know Me (2)" titles.

Lord Mendes · Nov 06, 2006, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys

Hmm. I don't agree with the elitist attitude of saying things like "you shouldn't play in HA." If using Heros makes things more managable for people new to HA, then so be it. If you're having a tough time against Heros, get some Heros and level them up. If many people-only teams will only take people with rank 3 or higher, then I want to see more and more people with that rank. The more, the better. It should be Hero's Ascent, not Elite Ascent. Everyone should be able to enjoy it if they wish. I want to see all HA newcomers have fun and get some fame points.

Wow, someon posts this gem just as I am typing my message. Utter ignorance imo... A great example of how horrible your main argument is.
I, or anyone posting anything serious in this thread are in no way rank elitist, and I will gladly accept a rank 0 into my groupes if I know he can play. That being said, most r0 players that think they can play have no idea what to do. Same can be said for most rank 3s, 6s, and even some r9+.
No-one started the game with rank, and in all fairness I dont see why an average player needs bots to start playing HA. Why should you get the easy route to fame, and many others including myself worked for it only to realize it means absolutely nothing. I mean we did it, why can't you?

looloo · Nov 06, 2006, 12:42 PM // 12:42

actually i think one solution to the whole HA mess is to nerf searing flame skill & some other overpowered ele skill...i bet by nerfing that, most team will be more players-oriented, instead 90% consisted of npc

looloo · Nov 06, 2006, 12:46 PM // 12:46

/signed

glountz · Nov 06, 2006, 12:59 PM // 12:59

I would sign if some things weren't bothering me.
1. Heroway erased the meaning of Rank. To many, it is a good thing (see rank erase proposal threads). In any way, rank didn't mean much, as holding teams were constituted by friends or guildmates regardless of individual rank.
2. If Heroway is easy to win, then that's good for human teams, as they directly skip boring maps (to their OWN OPINION, see the threads after 6v6 HA on the map changes) winning easily. If you win (easily to most HA PVPers) through the bots directly to the good human teams, what's the problem? See heroway as the scrub selection.
3. I didn't see yet heroway holding HA. Nor getting through the ladder in GvG. This said GvG has a direct team match based on ladder position.
4. My solution is to "import" the GvG matching system into HA. This matching should be based on the average rank of the team (as meaningless as it is) or guild rank if it is a guild group (as it is often- friends doing a lot of HA finish to make a HA guild as they win sigils). So heroway scrub fight heroway scrub. If human team win so easily over Heroway, they will get into high rank sooner, and fight against high-ranked people. Anf HA guild will fight again HA guilds.
Problem solved.

Lord Mendes · Nov 06, 2006, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I would sign if some things weren't bothering me.
1. Heroway erased the meaning of Rank. To many, it is a good thing (see rank erase proposal threads). In any way, rank didn't mean much, as holding teams were constituted by friends or guildmates regardless of individual rank.
2. If Heroway is easy to win, then that's good for human teams, as they directly skip boring maps (to their OWN OPINION, see the threads after 6v6 HA on the map changes) winning easily. If you win (easily to most HA PVPers) through the bots directly to the good human teams, what's the problem? See heroway as the scrub selection.
3. I didn't see yet heroway holding HA. Nor getting through the ladder in GvG. This said GvG has a direct team match based on ladder position.
4. My solution is to "import" the GvG matching system into HA. This matching should be based on the average rank of the team (as meaningless as it is) or guild rank if it is a guild group (as it is often- friends doing a lot of HA finish to make a HA guild as they win sigils). So heroway scrub fight heroway scrub. If human team win so easily over Heroway, they will get into high rank sooner, and fight against high-ranked people. Anf HA guild will fight again HA guilds.
Problem solved.

You proposed a resolution to this current problem, therefore you do not like the current situation. Why not /sign?

glountz · Nov 06, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

You proposed a resolution to this current problem, therefore you do not like the current situation. Why not /sign?

Because I don't think Heroes removal is THE solution. (And if you sign, it is for hero removal).
I don't want to keep PVEer "casual PvPer seeking for cool emote" out of HA. The casual PvPer of now might be the future elite of HA.
But I understand that HA PVPer want to keep a high quality of PvP play.
Correct team matching as it is now in GvG is the correct answer to the problem (IMHO, of course), not pure hero removal.

Linksys · Nov 06, 2006, 01:25 PM // 13:25

No you can use Heros and still learn how to play in HA. Just get a partner who also has some maxed out Heros and you're set to go. If nonrank people don't get a chance to learn because no one will take them into their teams, you don't get more and more experience competitors. You have an elitist system. I say get more and more people experienced and ranked by any means out there. If using Heros helps in any way, so be it. If it gets them rank which can get them into teams where they can learn, great. Let it be.

luilui · Nov 06, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

/signed
Good effort ^^
(honoured to have my post mentioned)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys

Hmm. I don't agree with the elitist attitude of saying things like "you shouldn't play in HA." If using Heros makes things more managable for people new to HA, then so be it. If you're having a tough time against Heros, get some Heros and level them up. If many people-only teams will only take people with rank 3 or higher, then I want to see more and more people with that rank. The more, the better. It should be Hero's Ascent, not Elite Ascent. Everyone should be able to enjoy it if they wish. I want to see all HA newcomers have fun and get some fame points.

If heroway stays and if it really can get people rank 3 (which i'm not sure), then soon no real team will accept rank3 and u might have to go to rank 6.

I also read other argument from other posts that saying heros are better than pugs and therefore they prefer to play with heros, for that reason they say heros should stay. Like this one here,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

/not signed
.......
Other reasons to keep heroway:
1. AI is sometimes better than the pugs you'll find
.......

That bunch of people happen to be the bunch that complain not getting a team because they are unranked, they call this elitism and it's very bad. Ranked players think unranked players are unskilled and therefore not taking them, whereas these unranked players are not taking pugs because they think they are not as skilled as heros, so they are not taking them neither. Isn't that exactly the same? Why is it bad for ranked players to reject unranked pug and it's ok for unranked players to reject unranked pugs? If you think you are as good as those ranked players than why don't you get some unranked players and teach them how to play?

The Silver Star · Nov 06, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

/signed

At Linksys, i play HA and only use friends list however sometiems i must get a PuG which i do DEMAND rank on, BUT if eg you were to appear and say eg "im r8 let me" if yo sucked because you had gained you rank from playing with NPC's and not real people i would simply kick you from the team instantly and you would learn nothing other than "im the worst r8 abut" because the rank system is sort of a baseline to peoples ability but you can be high ranked and suck and thats where the player select /kick command comes into use.

Linksys · Nov 06, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

I think I see what the post above me was saying. Maybe I hit a nerve? I understand the counter arguments against me. I'll chose not to be witty or rude about it.

I hope HA becomes a system where you don't know what you'll get in other gamers. Maybe someone got ranked with Heros. Maybe an unranked gamer is just on another account and is really good. The less discrimination, the better for everyone. Better to guess than to discriminate.

Lord Mendes · Nov 06, 2006, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys

No you can use Heros and still learn how to play in HA.

No, they will never teach you anything and sometimes you will die without knowing why. Heroes won't tell you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys

Just get a partner who also has some maxed out Heros and you're set to go.

Just get another partner and that 50% requirement is reached.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys

If nonrank people don't get a chance to learn because no one will take them into their teams, you don't get more and more experience competitors.

Rankless people can always find/form a team. It doesn't have to start in ID1 spamming "LF 1 R/W for VimWAY", simply ask friends or people you know and play with. If you don't want to make an effort like most of us did, then you don't deserve to play in HA imo. Also if you are an anti-social twat, dont play online games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys

You have an elitist system.

Nope, anyone with brains will realize that rank means nothing. I've been playing with a rank 4 from WM, and he is better than most rank 9s ive played with. Here's a secret, the "HA" part of the game starts when you join an HA/PvP guild or develop a friends list, and those rank 6 pugs you weren't getting into are horrible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys

I say get more and more people experienced and ranked by any means out there.

Experience is not rank. Experience will come from playing with real teams and improving your play through constructive critisism. Rank will come from winning games, be it with heroway or real teams.
Saying you will get experienced from playing with heroes is utter BS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys

If using Heros helps in any way, so be it.

It doesn't. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys

If it gets them rank which can get them into teams where they can learn, great. Let it be.

Supposedly, you learn to get rank, not get rank to learn. Do you fly a plane so that you can learn how to fly, or do you learn how to fly in order to fly a plane?

Linksys · Nov 06, 2006, 01:50 PM // 13:50

I just posted about taking guesses, which means I know there's a difference between rank and experience. But the fact is, there are still people who discriminate against unranked people. If you get ranked, you have more opportunities to find a team and continue to learn.

When I do HA, yes I find some gamers and I'm looking to join an HA guild. You don't have to tell me that.

As for using Heros, if it's an effective way to compete in HA, then you get experienced in doing exactly that.

BTW, please don't be so aggressive and use vulgar words. I can understand and appreciate your argument without them.

Lord Mendes · Nov 06, 2006, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linksys

BTW, please don't be so aggressive and use vulgar words. I can understand and appreciate your argument without them.

My bad, they tend to just slip into my posts :P

At least you do get my point, which is more than I can say about others that have posted on the numerous threads about this subject. The normal reply is "get lost noob. If you cant beat heroes then u suxxors. kthbye!".
That is vulgar...

luilui · Nov 06, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Because I don't think Heroes removal is THE solution. (And if you sign, it is for hero removal).
I don't want to keep PVEer "casual PvPer seeking for cool emote" out of HA. The casual PvPer of now might be the future elite of HA.
But I understand that HA PVPer want to keep a high quality of PvP play.
Correct team matching as it is now in GvG is the correct answer to the problem (IMHO, of course), not pure hero removal.

I do think you have a point there, but i think it's different matter. Take english football for example, in england there is the permiership league (as well as other leagues) and FA cup (which is a tournament), the league is for the top 20 teams in the country, where the cup is for every team in england. I would say GvG is like the league where teams with similar skill level and HA is like the FA cup. A non-league club would be happy to get to the 5th round in FA cup where a perimership team would expect to do which better.

In tennis or other sport, there is a seed system to separate the better players that is to keep the tournament interesting (to avoid unknown player in the final and keeping the audiences interested i suppose). If you suggest there is a matching mechanism to put the better teams together, then Hoh might have a holding team, a high rank team(one the beat all other high rank teams) and a low rank team (that beat other low rank teams). Which may be good, now the low rank teams have a better chance to win. But isn't it a bit unfair?

---------------

Actually, a second thought I dont mind i suppose. It's much more interesting to fight good teams than some r3+ pugs really. I would love it if that can keep me away from all those boring heroways.

The Silver Star · Nov 06, 2006, 02:01 PM // 14:01

A Hero doesnt use Vent/TS to disguss stategies and doesnt know what couters the oppsing build in anyway. Therefore you wont learn things with heroes.

Linksys · Nov 06, 2006, 02:08 PM // 14:08

It's alright, and I do appreciate all the opinions and views on this. Sometimes I do get impatient with inexperienced gamers who don't fix bad habits. But there are those who learn quickly. I just see that some people have to wait longer than others in HA.

You're right the Heros can't interact and use ts/vent. I'm not saying you'll learn using them like you learn teaming with real gamers. What I meant and should have explained more was that you can team up with one or two others, and fill in the rest with Heros. And you'll still have others to interact with. Or if you have a team of five and can't find one more person. Instead of using a hench, you can use a customized hero with the skills and weapons you set on it. There is some strategy there. Still limited I'm sure, but there is some.